From the Mouth of Sauron Date: 10-31-96 Issue: E-46 Note: all authors retain exclusive rights to their material. Reprinting is allowed for non-commercial game use only. The Mouth is edited by Brian Mason and Tom Walton. All correspondence can be sent to them at: Brian Mason - mason@chara.gsu.edu Tom Walton - crazymax@rio.com Back issues of "From the Mouth of Sauron" and the general info files are available at chara.gsu.edu via anonymous ftp. First Word ========== From Tom Walton I tried something new in the Fourth Age playtest game I was in, the one that just came to an end. Something that goes completely against my nature, and which I haven't attempted for years. I tried to be peaceful. As many of you know, I set my own victory conditions when I play a game, and they have little to do with collecting points. This time around, I decided my nation would be victorious if I could enforce a lasting peace upon the region I was in: northern Mirkwood. If Princemarch could remain free of conflict, it's citizens living in safety from it's murderous neighbors regardless of what else happened in Middle-Earth, then all was good with the world. It worked. Under my own terms, I won. The entire game passed without a single invasion, nay, even a single army - friendly or enemy - getting anywhere near my borders. Princemarch, despite having more than 10,000 warriors under arms, never once engaged in battle. Or perhaps because it fielded a huge army; there's something to be said for deterrance. And now I remember why I generally go the conquitador's route: peace is *boring*. It's witlessly, excruciatingly dull beyond words. Let's face it: war is far more exciting than peace. Pretend war anyway; the real thing isn't nearly so much fun. But in our pretend wars is where the action is, the adrenalin if you will, and that's where we get to see if we're able to outguess and outmaneuver our opponents. Now, one might argue that being able to go for more than 20 turns in a free-wheeling environment without loosing a single arrow, whilst at the same time building an economic giant of enormous proportions, is also a test of skill; but even so, it does nothing to stir the blood. I did learn that I can be a decent diplomat if forced into the role, but the key here is that I pretty much have to be shoved kicking and screaming into that assignment; I'd much rather stomp on my neighbor's sorry ass than bargain with him. I harbor a desire, barely held in check in playtest 2, to conquer, enslave, pillage, and dominate which makes lesser' pursuits of little interest. And this I found a bit intriguing. In many of the games I've played in over the years - pbm, computer, board, even rpg - players have a tendency to want to be the hero. They want to be Luke Skywalker or Aragorn or King Arthur, fighting for the greater good against the Evil Bad Guys. To them, being the joe (or jane) in the White Hat, the idol of the masses, a paragon of virtue and knighthood, is a very good thing - one to strive for. My heroes, however, have never been the good guys. I don't much care for their moral high-mindedness, their antiseptic way of looking at life, or their inability to occasionally stoop into the mud to achieve an end. My heroes are the Darth Vader's, the Witch-King's and the Morgana's; the fallen who still command a great deal of respect, who wield fear like a weapon, and who come within inches of smashing those self-righteous heroes into pulp. They are, very much, like the angels who challenge god in the Christian mythology; you know they're going to lose, since human beings hate it when the bad guys win, but hell - they try anyway. *Someone's* got to try, or there isn't a story to be told. Without a challenge, without sides, without some Black Hats to face off against the White Hats, no one remembers anyone wearing a Hat at all. When I play ME-PBM, I don't want to be a good guy; I want to be a bad guy. And I want to win as a bad guy, to make up for all the times the bad guys have lost in the movies, the books, and the games. I want to throw a new Shadow over Middle-Earth, one that'll roll over the land and crush hope and resistance beneath it's weight. To hell with peace-loving hobbits and snooty Elves and talking trees; to hell with Aragorn and his Dunedain rabble. They and their goodness and light can go take a long walk off a short pier. In any event, my taste for peace has been sated for another decade. In my next Fourth Age game, I intend to make up for lost time, and lost opportunities, by playing a nation of religious fanatics - fanatics that convert the heathen (meaning everyone else) by the sword, or the rack, or the burning brand. I intend to explode over Middle-Earth bringing terror and despair to all foolish enough to get in my way - or simply be within reach - and let nothing at all move to stop me. Death will be the order of the day; death and a ruined wasteland where only my troops and carrion birds roam. If you happen to get into a Fourth Age game with my religious fundamentalists sometime in the next couple of months, beware - there will be no reprieve, and there will be no mercy. I've dished out enough of both in playtest 2 to last me a lifetime. Just war, this time around; war to the bloody finish. As it should be. Tom News From the Net ================= ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #1 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "facade" (facade@localnet.com) Subject: Re: ME-PBM Fourth Age Date: 12 Sep 1996 01:08:16 GMT In my opinion the 4th age sounds like just another one of any number of fantasy battle royals, one with a very mediocre combat system. If that's what you want there are many better and cheaper. The best thing about previous MEpbm's has been the Tolkienesq flavor and one's ability to recognize the characters you encounter. Everyone knows that Ji Indur is a badass assassin and that's the good part. It inspires one's emotions and desires. Killing Ji Indur is something to brag about, killing character brand X is a big whoopteedoo. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from kgp8d@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Keith G. Parker) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Anybody out there know of a reason why a First Age scenario couldn't be developed? The mythology and geography of the Silmarillion would provide an excellent setting. KP ------------------------------------------------------------------- EDITORIAL INTRUSION ------------------------------------------------------------------- I once suggested this to Bill, and went so far as to plan out some positions, suggest characters, etc. While he confessed that it was interesting, the major objection put forth was the cost to develop a new map. - Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #2 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: draugnar@iglou.com (Draugnar) Subject: New MePBM Web Page Under Construction. PROBLEM SOLVED! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:19:23 GMT OK, Ladies & Gents... For those of you who were using Netscape Navigator 2.0 or later and tried to get on my page, I greatly apologize. It seems this neat little programming "trick" that I used to update multiple frames without redrawing the entire window didn't work under Netscape Navigator. I have now worked two sets of code; one for the Internet Explorer 3.0 people and one for the Netscape Navigator 2.0 or greater people. To go to the page which will let you pick which one you want, point your browser here: http://199.222.179.253/MePBM/index.html I have put a simple page there that let's you select either wep page or you can select it from the following URLs: Internet Explorer 3.0: http://199.222.179.253/MePBM/IEindex.html Netscape Navigator 2.0 and greater: http://199.222.179.253/MePBM/NNindex.html As time goes by (as in ASAP), I will add additional sections to both of these documents and, eventually, may even create a non-frame version. Although, this would be reinventing the wheel as several non-frame versions already exist. Check it out and give me your input, please. I'd love to here comments either way... L8r! Robert "Draugnar" Bolin ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #3 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: welostr2@concentric.net Newsgroups: rec.games.pbm Subject: ISO: ME-PBM 1650 starting player position Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:46:53 GMT Does anyone know where I can find maps and/or stats for the starting positions in ME-PBM 1650? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Carl Zachary (cbzach@aol.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------- BZACH's MEPBM IInfo Page at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/3615/ or Web Warrior MEPBM Page at http://www.resnet.uconn.edu/~jason/mepbm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #4 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kgp8d@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Keith G. Parker) Subject: GSI's e-mail results Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:42:55 GMT Hey! Anybody out there just recently have any problems with GSI's MEPBM e-mail results? Mine were working out just fine, but my last two turns the files have been corrupted. GSI claims they can read them just fine. The only thing I can think of is that my server just recently updated its version of PINE. I also have access to Netscape mail, so if any of you guys know how to decode the files with that could you let me know? Thanks! KP ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #5 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gloom@msn.com (Aaron Loomis) Subject: ME2950-Help on Encounters Date: 20 Sep 96 08:28:20 -0700 I have the two following encounters and have heard no answers that can win. I am playing the Free and have mid to high level mages at each encounter alone. Durin's Bane, the Balrog I can: Mention SAURON's name APOLOGIZE for intrusion ATTACK the Balrog (not the best choice for character at this time) tell a STORY about getting lost OFFER Balrog money or artifacts BOW down to Balrog FLEE Any facts out there? A little different than the standard 1650 Balrog The next encounter is the Pukel guardian, but I do not know the weakness. I have stealth , so maybe steal, no agent skill though. cave with oblong block of stone engulfed in transparent blue glow I can: attack PHYSICALLY to drive off guardian attack MAGICALLY to dispel wards creep silently and REMOVE item leap forward and STEAL item WAIT and see if shimmering dissapears declare ALLEGIANCE say_________ FLEE Any facts on this one out there. My Mouth of Sauron source can not be found ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Todd Jenner (jenner@vega5.cs.wisc.edu) ------------------------------------------------------------------- I've tried a few characters on this one. I believe, from experience and help from other people, that the first four correspond to your characters, so that Command would use PHYSICALLY, etc. (I think Emissary is STEAL, but I'm not sure.) I think WAITing is bad, but I don't know about the other two. FLEEing is fine. The highest challenge rank for my characters was 60 or so, and he failed. I'd say 80+ is your best bet. => ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #6 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nl@kvl.dk (Niels) Subject: Re: MEPBM Riddles Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:10:03 GMT Carl B Zachary (CBZACH@aol.com) wrote: >Need help with two Riddles >Riddle 1 >Hard and fierce these warriors be, >Though they number less than a score. >Cold steel doth seek to cut them down, >Yet these heroes do return for more. >Let both good and evil beware this band, >For they can always be found at hand. >Riddle 2 >Developed to be a bearer of sound >It yest won acceptance for centuries around >From elf to man and even dwarven kind >It kept all together and in knowledge did bind. >Thanks >Carl B Zachary Hello I have a shot at both riddles: The first answer could be (your) Fingers: They number less han a score and they are always found at hand (lousy pun). I dont know about the parts mentioning Cold steel... The second answer sounds like Writing/Alphabet or perhaps the name of the first elven alphabet Tengwar or Quenya which of the two came first eludes me at the moment. Niels ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #7 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: sheppard@onramp.net (Andy Sheppard) Subject: MEPBM - Balrogs Date: 21 Sep 1996 19:31:25 GMT Playing the (freep) Duns in a 1650 game, I encountered a Fire King army. He had "A Balrog" with him, which proceeded to rip my army apart during the combat just like a dragon would. The combat report we quite impressive - "A Balrog, a great fiery being with a long whip and...". Now, it makes sense that the Fire King if anyone would have a Balrog with his army, but how do you recruit him? On the flip side, I had an 85 agent in the hex who managed to assassinate the Balrog the same turn. I figure it's possible to assassinate any NPC in the game, including dragons, but the downside is bad news - what happens when you fail to assassinate someone with a skill of 100? You take 100 points of damage... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #8 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dade-sc@ix.netcom.com(Leo DiBenigno) Subject: MEPBM - Dragon Effect on Loyalty Date: 21 Sep 1996 21:09:52 GMT I play the Dwarves in a 2950 game. A dragon (Smaug) has visited one of my pop centers and does not seem to want to leave. My loyalty keeps dropping. I'm sending an Emmy to counter this, but I want to know what will get rid of this unwelcome pest short of a PC or other direct conflict. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Best regards. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from mason@chara.gsu.edu (Brian D. Mason) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Not much you can do about a dragon influencing your pop center except endure it. Sending an emmisary might get the emissary killed. I'd advocate abandoning the hex and moving back after the lizard is gone. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from "facade" (facade@localnet.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------- You could try asking one of yer friendly neighorhood DS players to come and recruit Smaug. (smirk) Oh and I'm sure Smaug will find your Emmy delish! ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from nl@kvl.dk (Niels) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Once your emissary gets there he will get an encounter with smaug. When this encounter has been processed (i.e. your emissary has reacted in some way), Smaug will move on after influencing one last time. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #9 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "facade" (facade@localnet.com) Subject: Re: ME PBM 1650 -Hints/Tips Date: 21 Sep 1996 21:31:49 GMT Andy Bodkin (andybod@b0dders.demon.co.uk) wrote in article (NAOMWCAgycPyEwJE@b0dders.demon.co.uk)... > Hi, if anyone has any hints or tips for playing the 1650 Middle >Earth scenario as the Witch King and is happy to pass them on >to a newbie to the system I'd be pleased to hear from you. > I played Witch King in 155 and won so I can tell you what worked for me. -- Jack yer tax rate up to as close to 100% as possible. -- Recruit on every pop center that is larger than a village every turn. Troops are vital to you so don't miss even a single turns recruiting. -- Get Rhudaur on your side at all costs, Dunlendings would be nice but Rhudaur is critical. -- Go on the offensive as soon as possible. Start taking free pop centers and concentrate on either Arthedain or Cardolan and attempt to take them out of the game. If you're in a single player game and you strike hard and fast, you stand a good shot of at least cripling one of them before the free in your area get organized. Things I didn't do but would now. -- Demand agent support from Mordor. -- Name a couple emissaries and send them to the Misty mountains. Have them each place a new camp and sit on it. With your high tax rate you'll be losing 3 a turn from the loyalty of your pop centers so naming lots of camps is out. However by staying put and InfYouring every turn you accomplish 2 things. For one you keep the camps alive and even more importantly you have two very good dragon recruiting bases. I've had camps in those mountains that seemed to almost every turn have a dragon come a visiting. As long as you stay aggressive and keep taking the fight to them you'll be doing ok. When you begin having battles on your starting pop centers it'll be all down hill from there. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from draugnar@iglou.com (Draugnar) ------------------------------------------------------------------- That wouldn't have been 236 would it? If so, I was Rhudaur and rumors of my demise were greatly exagerrated. By moving my capital for me and eliminating alot of my characters (and all of my armies) the FP turned me into the greatest financial nation the DS ever saw. No expenses and I setup so that I could single handedly market manipulate virtually anything I wanted. It wound up being a lot of fun and I was just getting the hang of it when the FP gave up. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Kevin Barry (kbarry@concentric.net) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, it wasn't 236. Sorry. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #10 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pontus.gustavsson@mailbox.swipnet.se (Pontus Gustavsson) Subject: ME-PBM Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:08:31 Any players in Allsorts 203, please contact me! I'm playing Southern Gondor in a 2950 scenario. Are the locations of encounters fixed or can I meet Smaugh the Great in say Umbar? :-) If you know any encounters near Gondor, tell me! One more question, if I attack a camp is it at all possible to capture it or is it destroyed? Pontus Gustavsson [Editorial reply: the sucker's obliterated.] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #11 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ALS@email_address Subject: MEPBM War Machines Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 11:32:08 Does anyone have any thoughts on how effective war machines actually are? It appears that their timber cost is quite high compared to their effectiveness against fortifications in the early stages of the game. To take out a fort requires 30 war machines, or 15,000 timber. Also, they appear from the rules to be lost proportionally to army losses. Any comments or thoughts on the costs and benefits? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Patrick F. McGehearty (patrick@convex.COM) ------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are in an economically weak situation, war machines don't look very exciting. Their cost of production vs combat power is quite high. But there are some situations were they can have substantial value, especially when you are in a resource rich environment. They only provide 200 combat points vs fortifications, which is the same as 20 HI troops per war machine, but that is applied before any weather/terrain/commander skill/loyalty modifications are made. In an attack of a Mtn Fort by newly recruited troops with a new commander, a single war machine can provide as much value as 160 HI. 30 war machines provide as much value as 4800 HI, or 12 turns of recruiting in a MTown. The real value of the war machines is provide rapid military buildup in order to take enemy fortifications before the enemy can develop countermeasures. For example, it is unusual for a Free nation to have an army survive 12 turns without being under agent attack. To counter that problem, the Free nations need to coordinate their efforts and ship enough timber to a couple of points to build enough war machines take out fortified positions in a single move from when the Darks first spot them. The proportion of losses are not relevant, because if the Dark agents have their act together, armies with war machines will have no commanders after one or at most two battles. War machines also can be built as part of a rapid recruiting measure to fight a force that would otherwise move in and capture a critical popcenter. Finally, some people build war machines because they like the idea of having such a powerful force, capable of smashing anything in its path. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from v123h3m2@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Jaede) ------------------------------------------------------------------- War machines are , as you say, rarely cost effective early in the game. Even a nation with substantial timber production can probably find something better to do with the stuff, such as sell it to raise funds for armies and characters. In the mid- to end-game, however, when the market has dropped and production has risen, war machines make a lot more sense. Unlike troops, the machines don't eat or demand pay, and can perform many turns of service at no additional cost. The key is to have enough of them in a single army. If you have enough to level the fortifications of a pop center, you will incur very few troop losses, and as a result will lose few war machines. If you have but a few, they may provide you the bare margin of victory in a single assault, but your substantial troop losses will also lead to substantial war machine losses. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Chris Whitfield (cerebus@swin.edu.au) ------------------------------------------------------------------- I think in most cases the costs for war machines never really add up. Consider the costs involved and the money could be better spent on HI. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from cx328@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (August Tischer) ------------------------------------------------------------------- While the money might be better spent on HI, time and maintenance are valid factors as well. Once war machines are made they require no maintenance. Also, if you need some punch in a real hurry against a well-fortified target, you can make an unlimited number of war machines in just one turn (local timber and gold being the limiting factors). In the early game you usually don't see war machines. The gold and timber cost are too great, but if you can afford them, they are very beneficial. I'm in a game (1650) where the QA lost Vamag to the Corsairs and Lugarlur to the Haradwaith on the same turn. While both of these nations could have overcome the castles at those locations just by hiring more troops, their armies are much larger after the battle because they implemented the use of war machines to drop fortifications to forts. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #12 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eichmann@ceres.amp.uni-hannover.de (Holger Eichmann) Subject: MEPBM: army encounters Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:50:42 GMT Hi! I suppose I am not the first one who asks this question, but I cannot remember that I ever heard an answer: One of my allies found Gandalf at one of his towns. Because we know that Gandalf increases the emissary ranks of all characters running with an army, which encounters him, my ally wants to send an army to that place and he wants to send all his emissaries into that army via 870 MovJoin. The question: When does the army encounter happen: After the Move Army and before the Move/Join Army order (then the emis don't get a bonus to their ranks), or after the order 870 MovJoin? Another question: Which rank does an agent need to 'persuade' Gandalf to lend him his +50 mage artifact? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #13 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laurence G. Tilley" (laurence@lgtilley.demon.co.uk) Subject: MEPBM Riddle Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 19:55:29 +0100 Can anyone help me with this 2950 riddle? Known by another name at first Then renamed by he of the third and the first Its accidents spoke of its black thirst But too late was its nature seen to be accursed ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Jeff Dobberpuhl (attorney@mr.net) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Could this be the sword Anglachel? (From Turin Turambar) ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from kgiven@aol.com (KGiven) ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's GURTHANG. Known first as Anglachel, it was renamed by Turin Turambar, who was descended from both the first and third houses of Man in the First Age. It also had a black blade, and was fated to always cause harm to its bearer in the end. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #14 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eichmann@ceres.amp.uni-hannover.de (Holger Eichmann) Subject: MEPBM: Questions about encounters Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:44:53 GMT Hi! I have two questions about encounters: 1. I learnt from the rulebook that, when a character gets an encounter, every other character who is standing in that hex can react to the encounter. And I know that a character who is running with an army cannot get a character encounter. My question: Can a character who is running with an army react to an encounter, which another character found at the hex? 2. I heard that more than one character can react to a dragon encounter during the same turn. Let's say character A finds a dragon encounter. He doesn't give the Reaction to Encounter order, while character B gives that order. Will only character B face the dragon or also character A? Perhaps I should explain the question: I just created a new commander/agent at my capital, who found a dragon immediately. Because dragons like Dwarves (most together with chips), I suppose that my character will die. Because I don't want to waste the whole 10000 gold, I want to react to the encounter with a small commander who is running with my capital army. I hope that commander dies and my commander/agent survives. Will that plan work? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from kgiven@aol.com (KGiven) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah, the age-old Dwarf problem. Nope, your plan won't work, for the reasons you feared - characters travelling in armies can not react to Character encounters in the hex. Here's one trick that does work though - when creating a commander or a multi-class w/ commander, Transfer Command of the army to him on the same turn. The trick, of course, is to give the new character a name that GSI won't disqualify & override. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #15 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ALS@email_address Subject: MEPBM Food Date: Mon, 07 Oct 96 10:06:22 It states in the rulebook that when an army runs out of food it begins foraging and has its morale reduced. In addition, its movement is supposed to slow to less than 75% of normal. Does anyone know more precisely what the effects on movement are? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from draugnar@iglou.com (Draugnar) ------------------------------------------------------------------- The official GSI calculation is 4/3 the movement rate for each hex rounded against your army's favor. If your movement through a hex is normally 1, it becomes 2. 2 becomes 3, 3 becomes 4, 4 becomes 6 (not 5), 5 becomes 7, 6 becomes 8, 7 becomes 10 (not 9), 8 becomes 11, 9 becomes 12, and 10 becomes 14 (not 13). I give the higher ones because stealthy movement is at twice normal, so a normal 5 would cost 14 without food and stealthy (theoretically). ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from kgiven@aol.com (KGiven) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. The movement cost for each hex is mulitplied by 4/3, and then rounded up. A hex costing 2 would now cost 3, a 3 is now a 4, a 4 is now a 6, etc.. Note, that this makes it impossible to move into a (non-road) mountain hex. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from eichmann@ceres.amp.uni-hannover.de (Holger Eichmann) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Some more comments: - rivers etc. are added to the movement cost, before it is multiplied by 4/3. E.g. infantry without food moving into a plain hex and crossing a river need 4/3*(3+2) = 20/3 -> 7 days for the movement - An army moves with food, when it has at least 1 food at the start of the movement order. So 100HI without food, which are standing at a Major Town of the same nation, will move without food (although the Major Town can feed 2500 troops; the 100HI will lose no morale). BTW: I heard the rumour that forced march starts on day 0, while normal march starts on day 1. Can anybody confirm or disprove this rule? A good possibility to show that this rule is wrong would be a situation like this: Let's say army A moves via Forced March from e.g. 3024 to 3124 and army B moves via Normal March from 3124 to 3024. If the rule is right, both armies MUST stop each other at 3124. When both armies are standing at 3024 after the turn, the forch march must have started at the same time like the normal march (perhaps I should explain the army movement that these sentences are understandable: When army A moves from 3024 to 3124 and needs 6 days for the movement, it moves to 3124 immediately at stays 6 days at 3124. The same for army B: It immediately moves to 3024 and stays there 2 days. Because both movements are crossing each other, there is a 50% probability that both armies are stopped at 3024 or at 3124, WHEN both armies starts their movements on the same day) ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from lbundy@passport.ca (Larry Bundy) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Generally, add one movement point for any hex 3 or under and 2 points for over 3. ie, plains at 3 would be four movement points. Cavalry in plains is 2 / without food add 1 making it 3. Rivers and bridges are counted separately from hexes and have 1 point added to their "with food" rate. It is not possible to enter a mountain hex (without a road) without food. Forest which is 5 points would be 7 points without food. Basically, you are dividing the original cost by 3 and rounding upwards to a whole number. Hope that helps. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #16 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carl B Zachary (cbzach@aol.com) Subject: Allsorts MEPBM Website Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:29:39 -0700 Allsorts MEPBM Website new address is http://www.suilven.demon.co.uk/allsorts/me/home.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #17 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dade-sc@ix.netcom.com(dade-sc Subject: MEPBM: Bard vs Smaug Date: 14 Oct 1996 15:32:55 GMT Just finished re-reading The Hobbit and wondered how close if at all GSI tried to incorporate it and LotR into the actual game mechanics. For example, if Bard of the Northmen moved from Esgaroth to the Lonely Mountain and created a camp, he would likely have an encounter with Smaug the Golden. Now, if Bard were then to PC Smaug, would Bard win and kill the Dragon since this is what he did in The Hobbit? In other words, would Bard be given a huge bonus to his Challenge specifically against Smaug? Has anyone playing The Northmen tried this strategy or heard of this happening? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Patrick F. McGehearty (patrick@convex.COM) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Some events have been included in the game, but not every detail of the books is there. Except for starting characteristics, I don't think any player-character specific encounters are included. So you might think of Bard's defeat of Smaug to be the equivalent of a critical success, 1 in 100 shot. It could happen, but don't count on it. On the plus side, Gandalf and other non-player characters wander around the board and provide special encounters (meeting Gandalf is good for Free People and bad for Dark Servants, while meeting Sauron has the reverse effect). There are a number of other LotR and Hobbit specific encounters, including the possibility of recruiting Ents (which are the equivalent of great war machines in game terms) if a Free nation sends an army wandering in Fanghorn forest. Also, the riddles tend to come from the various books. So there is a a strong LotR flavor in the game, but the game does not exactly match the ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from jaede@acsu.buffalo.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with Patrick that special encounter abilities for player characters seem unlikely. I don't know of anyone specifically sending Bard after Smaug, but I believe a friend tried sending Aragorn into the Paths of the Dead and got nothing. [another editorial comment: GSI specifically told me a couple of years back that certain starting characters have advantages when faced with particular encounters, then strongly hinted that Aragorn and the Paths of the Dead were a good example. However, across all the games I've played I've *never once* seen any starting character get a bonus with any encounter at all.] Patrick is mistaken, however, in saying that Ents act like war machines. This is a persistent rumor which is doubtless based on the account of the destruction of Isengard in LOTR. In fact Ents give a combat bonus in the same way that dragons or Woses do. I've heard the bonus estimated at 20,000 points, but I know of no firm confirmation. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #18 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbzach@aol.com (Cbzach) Subject: New encounter in MEPBM 2950? Date: 13 Oct 1996 14:37:55 -0400 Anybody have any info on this encounter Yarmilka is at camp when a sudden chill passes through her and a shadow momentarily obscures the stars overhead. Alert and ready for action, she scanned the surrounding terrain but could see nothing. Then from out of the night she heard a hollow voice. "Little do I like finding others so near to where my errands take me! Speak, lest I silence you forever." ATTACK the speaker Declare your ALLEGIANCE INTERROGATE the speaker about the errand APOLOGIZE for the intrusion REQUEST information WAIT and say nothing Say ______________ (only one word) FLEE ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from cx328@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (August Tischer) ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's CELGOR. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from wdb@dircon.co.uk (William D. Belben) ------------------------------------------------------------------- It is indeed Celgor - good luck ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #19 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: panamon@netcom.com (Ian Verhaegen) Subject: MEPBM Mirror/Skeleton encounter Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:01:21 GMT I'm looking for anybody who has had the Encounter with the Mirror and shifting images and the Skeleten in armor with a sword guarding a door with a lock on it. I need to know the character who encountered (type and rank) and result. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cbzach@aol.com (Cbzach) Subject: MEPBM Riddle Date: 17 Oct 1996 16:56:07 -0400 Anyone have the answer to this riddle To some it is fate To others the symbol of hate ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #21 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dade-sc@ix.netcom.com(dade-sc Subject: MEPBM 2950: encounter help needed Date: 18 Oct 1996 19:47:41 GMT Hi, A Dwarven character (Emmy 40) had this message in the Iron Hills: "He encountered a crevice in the hillside which he can investigate." What's the encounter and should I investigate? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from jaede@acsu.buffalo.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an artifact encounter. You can issue an "investigate encounter" order to learn more. You will either get a riddle or an encounter with guardian spirits or wights. Most artifact encounters seem to be riddles, but if you're not so lucky the spirits will tear your little emmy to shreds. I usually limit my artifact searchers to characters with challenge ranks above 70, unless i just feel i can afford losing a character. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from drawes@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Mark Seward") ------------------------------------------------------------------- If you can afford to lose the character, then yes, investigate. If not, get a higher challenge character there and investigate again. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #22 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tracy Scott (tscott@interlog.com) Subject: MEPBM Food Question Date: 18 Oct 1996 22:01:55 GMT If an army is sitting at one of your pop centers with no food (but being fed by the pop center), and it moves out, will you immediately suffer the effects of no food, or does gsi assume that your army ate at the pop center THEN moved out, thus giving you 1 free turn of full movement before movement restrictions kick in? ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from jaede@acsu.buffalo.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- The movement rule boils down to this: if you have 1 or more food in the baggage train at the point of movement, you move as a fed army. In your case your food is at 0 and you move at the slower rate. Buy or transfer in 1 food and you will have full movement for 1 turn. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #23 ------------------------------------------------------------------- rom: steve@narboro.demon.co.uk Subject: mepbm riddle Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:05:31 GMT Hi Tolkien fans, I'm hoping you can help me solve a riddle; "King was he, tho slain by dragon ire, But a man is known by what he does, And a hero of vengeance he did sire." Any ideas? Thanks in anticipation, Steve Marlow. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from Tracy Scott (tscott@interlog.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the answer might be Girion, who was slain by Smaug, and was the father of Girion II. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #24 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tracy Scott (tscott@interlog.com) Subject: MEPBM 2950 Riddle Date: 20 Oct 1996 01:35:18 GMT Had this riddle recently: Hunters they were Not farmers or artisans they say Wary they were, And then where driven away Into the woods they ran Far from human eye Till only the coming of the dark Made them less shy My guess would be 'woses', but any help would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- response from kgp8d@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Keith G. Parker) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Pretty sure you're right here. The riddle seems dead-on. KP ------------------------------------------------------------------- Miscellaneous ============= From Erik Gunderson ------------------- In your ME2950 data file, I have noted 2 errors: 1. the riders of rohan has hex 2321 listed twice, as the location of Aldburg and Edoras. 2. the dog lord has hex 2921 listed twice, as the location of Lag-dagur and Ostigurth. Would appreciate the actual locations! Mouth of Sauron submission: I am interested in adding to the setup data provided by Tom and Brian in their ME1650/2950 files. I would like to compile statistics on starting gold reserves for each nation, and starting character locations. For example, what are the odds that Elrond is at Imladris at game start, versus Elostirion? Is Cirdan always at Mithlond? Is Murazor usually in the same spot? Etc. If you would like to help, please send available set up infor to: Erik Gunderson 1936 Carmel Drive Plano, TX 75075 ewgundersn@aol.com Look forward to hearing from you! From Niels Lademark ------------------- I am relatively new to MePBM with only a total of 40 turns under my belt. I have had enormous benefit from your extensive database and The Mouth of Sauron as well which I have read throughly. However recent experience have shaken my belief in the oracles :-). I have included three e-mails sent by me and the british MePBM gamemaster Chris. The sum of it is that the combat artifact #83 orcist is not even near what you have described in your database. It is listed as: +2250 Good Aligned In the Allsorts version of MePBM 1650 it is +750 Neutrally aligned. Naturally I am curious as to the discreprancy. Where did you get your data? [Tom's note: there are minor errors here and there in the databases. Needless to say, we rely upon you, the diligent reader, to find and correct them.] I am a frequent guest at your FTP site and download both MoS and your infofiles whenever they are updated. Most of the times the changes to the infofiles are so minor that I cannot find them. Could you include a brief list of the changes in the beginning of the infofiles? [Tom's note: that wouldn't be possible. We don't keep a log of the changes as they come in; we simply correct our files once an error has been found. If you want to find a change between one version of the file and the next, download both and do a comparison search in any decent word processor; the alterations should show up readily.] In an encouter with Slyrdarch a challange 88 character defeated the monster and nettet 12.000 gold, a lower amount than what you report in the infofiles IIRC. [Tom's note: gold obtained is variable for all of these encounters. We simply list what we've seen to date, or been told about.] I have also encounteres Galadriel, all of the mages in that army were given spells from a lost list and the army morale was boosted, but none of the mages recived ANY skill increase whatsoever (there were three 50+ mages and one with a meager 10 in skill). So the skill increase is not automatic. In an encouter with Gostir in 3506 my FP 53 emissary acted MEEK and escaped unharmed. Note that this is well below the xx03 hex range. The climate was cold so perhaps the climate of the hex has some influence on the movement of this wurm. [Tom's note: this has been reported elsewhere as well. Gostir's range seems to increase as the climate becomes colder. Even so, Gostir is an extremely rare encounter, since very few characters have any reason to travel within the wyrm's normal haunt.] I have had six spider encounters in the Mirkwood area with low skilled FP characters. The encounters were allways with the spider Enna San Sarab, and only in one case did the character escape with 1 hp (as opposed to most of the time the character will escape...). I tried the answer SAY "Enna" in one instance resulting in combat (and a dead character). I am not sure if there are any Generic spider encounter or if Enna San Sarab is the only one around. If a generic encounter exists I suggest that you split up the encounter description in your database in a generic encounter description and the plague of the woodmen Enna San Sarab. Thats all for now From Rochelle Newman -------------------- >From Tony Z >=========== >I've seen references to characters getting extra abilities (i.e., >you name a 30 emissary and he comes out with 30 emissary and an >extra 10 agent or something). How likely is this to happen, and >does using the Name Character (versus Name >Emissary/Mage/Agent/Commander) have anything to do with the chances >of what pops up? I'm sure GSI will flatly deny this occurs, and I have no idea if this happens in the All-Sorts games at all; but it sure seems to me that FIRST-TIME PLAYERS GET A LOT OF EXTRA ABILITIES. Heck, my first game I played Cardolan, and I think I had more agents with 25-30 stealth than did the Sinda or Woodmen (and a lot more than I got in later games as the Sinda or IK). In other games, it's always seemed that new players got especially *lucky*. I suspect that GSI tweaks the proportions somewhat, to give newbies a greater probability of special abilities. Any one else see the same pattern? Personally, I don't mind - newbies often need the advantage! But I doubt GSI would admit to this happening, regardless. As for other advantages - you tend to receive more of what you're trying to get, in general. That is, if you name a single class, you don't tend to get a multi-class instead (or at least I've never seen it - has anyone else?). If you name a single-class, you're likely to get up to 10 points extra in whatever that class is; If you name a dual-class character, then you're likely to get 10 points in a third class. So, if you're trying for a multi-class, you get more "multi", if you try for a single skill, you get more of that skill. Thus, your example of naming an emmy and getting agent skills seems to be pretty unlikely. Stealth is another matter entirely; I'm not sure whether its *completely* random which characters get it, but it doesn't appear to be limited to one type of character. So you can get an emmy with stealth; just not an emmy with agent rank (again, anyone see anything different?) I'm not completely sure whether the real factor is "naming a dual-class" character, vs. "using the name character rather than name comm/agen/emmy/mage" order, but I *think* its the type of character rather than the type of order thats the issue. Tom's reply: I've created a number of characters who've come in with 10 points in some skill they wouldn't otherwise have. E.g., most recently a 40-point commander ended up with 10 points of emissary skill; a double-class agent/emmy had 10 points of mage skill; and a straight emissary showed up with 10 points of agent skill. It can and does happen, but it seems far more likely that a character will end up with additional points in his primary skill rather than 10 points in another skill (and a good thing, since a 10 skill rank is damned useless). From Tony Zbaraschuk -------------------- A summary of a Q & A session with Bill Feild Can two subcommanders in the same army TroopsMan the same troop type, or must they train different types? YES, THEY CAN TRAIN THE SAME TROOP TYPE AND DOUBLE THE BENEFITS. Do unowned artifacts always start in the same place from game to game, or is their placement random? If random, is it "all over the map" or "in the same area?" ARTIFACTS START RANDOMLY, NOT IN THE SAME HEX, NOR SAME AREA. If I have a 30 commander (no other skills) with an agent artifact, can he raise his agent rank from 0 by performing (say) GrdLoc, thus giving me a dual-class character on the cheap? NO. EXCEPT FOR STEALTH (WHICH IS NOT A SKILL) NO RANK CAN BE RAISED ABOVE ZERO BY VIRTUE OF ARTIACT BENEFITS. Does the system keep track of how many people have what kind of armor/weapons? For instance, if I have 300 steel/steel HC and 300 bronze/bronze HC, and enter combat, the printout would show 600 45/45 HC, right (average of steel and bronze)? If I then lose 300 HC in the opening battle, do I lose them evenly from each, or would the less well-defended bronze/bronze HC take more casualties then the Royal Arnorian Lancers in their steel armor? THE LOSSES WOULD BE SPREAD EVENLY BECAUSE THE TROOPS ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE 45 ARMOR, NOT SOME WITH 30 AND SOME WITH 60. PAGE 27-28 IN THE RULES COVERS THIS IN SOME DETAIL. If an army attacks a population center, but doesn't have enough strength to (destroy /capture) it, does it still weaken the pop center any (reduce it in size, reduce fortifications, etc.?) IT WOULD NOT AFFECT THE POP CENTER LEVEL. HOWEVER, IT WOULD PUT IT' UNDER SIEGE' AND IF THE ARMY HAD WAR MACHINES, IT COULD REDUCE THE FORTIFICATIONS. If one of my victory conditions is to roast Elrond over a slow fire, and I successfully feed him to the wolves, can the Noldor (or another player) name a new character "Elrond" and thereby deprive me of my victory points? (Actually, this is two questions: can a new character be given the same name as a dead or retired character; if so, does this new character "undo" the death of the old one as far as victory points are concerned?) YES, THEY COULD NAME A NEW "ELROND" (OR ELROND II, ETC). HOWEVER, THE COMPUTER WILL KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AT GAME END (DUE TO THE UNIQUE CHARACTER "SKETCH ID" ASSOCIATED WITH ALL ORIGINAL CHARACTERS) AND YOU WOULD STILL GET CREDIT FOR THE 'KILL'. If one of my victory conditions to hold (name of population center), and it is destroyed during the game, can I build a new one with the same name in its place and get the victory points for that? (After all, I am colonizing the area I want...) YES, AS LONG AS YOU CONTROL THE HEX WITH A POP CENTER, THE NAME MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. From Kim Andersen ----------------- In one of my games as DS, two dragons (Smaug and Scorba) have turned up in two of my towns. Well, the place where Scorba turned up, I only had an army-commander, so he of course did not encounter the dragon. But the question is if the army-commander can "force" (as Brian suggests in his encounter file) the encounter with Scorba. Or do I have to move a new character in to get the encounter. In general I like to know if army-commanders can "force" any encounter (i.e. answer the riddle for an artifact). I asked Criss at Allsorts this question which you can see in the forwarded message, so I guess I have to move another character in. In the other center where Smaug turned up, we (the DS) have two characters (one of them had just moved in) not in armies, but neither of us got any encounter with Smaug ??? Well, the FP also have two armies here, so it could be some FP character who got the encounter. But the questions are then: 1) Can characters with armies get encounters ? [Tom's note: depends on the encounter. If it's an army encounter, yes; otherwise, no.] 2) Can characters with armies "force" an encounter ? [Tom's note: nope.] 3) Do you ALWAYS encounter a dragon if there are characters in the hex ? [Tom's note: nope again.] 4) If we say that a FP character got the encounter with Smaug, he will of course have to spend an order reacting to the encounter, avoiding getting slain. Can our two DS characters then also react to recruit Smaug now that a FP have already reacted to it ? (Brian say so in his encounter file, but is this ALWAYS true). [Tom's note: two things. First, you don't have to spend an order to react; the default is always FLEE, and for the FP much of the time this is the best option. Second, the DS won't be able to recruit the dragon if the dragon is attempting to munch on an FP character; the dragon will only react with *one* character during the turn. I've tried to force' a number of encounters to save a character from being injured and found that because the first character was serving as the monster's dinner, others in the hex couldn't attract its attention.] Forced March Movement ===================== By John Cain I would like to respond to Ken Lee's recent assertion in _Mouth_ 44 about how forced marching, works. He stated that forced marching starts on day 1, other army movement on day 2. In _Mouth_ 45, Ken Lee backed up his assertion with an example he had discussed with the MEPBM GMs here in Australia. My comments are intended to rebut what Ken wrote. Here in Australia, MEPBM is GMed by SFGA, mainly by Fred Martin. Fred is a very helpful and friendly GM, and generally does a great job. However, SFGA's knowledge of the detailed mechanics of how the game works is not always exactly on the spot in my experience. This is hardly surprising, as they are only going to know what GSI tells them, or what they discover through their own experience (I believe they play in a couple of GSI games via email). I am afraid that in this case it seems to me that SFGA have inadvertently mislead Ken as to the explanation for the example he sets out to support his case. My primary reference is the article "Army Movement in MEPBM" by Paul E. Lundstroem in _Mouth_ #29. I recommend that anyone who is interested in the mechanics of army movement should read this article. My own experience supports this article's explanation of the movement mechanics in MEPBM. Ken gives his example: >> Place : My army was on a mountain road hex vs SG was also on a >> mountain road hex. >> Food : My army have no food vs SG's army have food. >> Army : My army was a full cav army vs SG mix (with footmen) >> troops army. >> Movement : My army had normal movement vs SG force march. >> >> I was attempting to keep a SG army off my capital so I can try >>to assassinate his army commander off my capital since capture pop >>is before assassination. >> My army movement costed 4 (full cav without food) and SG >>movement was 6. Now, it would seem that I have won the movement >>combat, but guess what happen that next turn? A SG army appear on >>my capital and my army didn't move!? Ken provides a complicated explanation for this event, as given to him by SFGA. Apart from the fact that some of the logic in this explanation appears to be flawed, the explantion is also incorrect. Armies enter the hex they are moving to BEFORE they expend any movement points, then expend the movement cost for entering that hex IN that hex. The explanation for the above event is really quite simple. When two armies (lets call them A and B) start adjacent to each other, and each attempts to move into the other's hex, a random selection is made to see whether A or B gets to move first. If A gets to go first, it enters B's hex, trapping B there. If B goes first, then it will enter A's hex, trapping A there. So there you have it. Of course, the above does not make it impossible that forced marching does indeed start on day 1, and normal army movement on day 2. However, I doubt this is true. Since Ken's first assertion of this, an ally of mine has been in a somewhat similar situation to that Ken describes. He force marched into the enemy, but still found them on his capital rather than himself in their hex. Of course, it is possible that they also force marched, so this does not completely settle the question. Challenge Ranks of 1650 Starting Characters =========================================== By Tony Zbaraschuk I put this together, and thought it might be a useful article for the Mouth. It's a list of the characters in the 1650 MEPBM that start with artifacts, including the recalculated challenge rank and the powers of their artifacts. This shows (for instance) why Cardolan should always refuse personal challenges when running into the Witch-king's armies :) 1.03 The Eothraim Mahrcared(C 50, Ch 50(70)) 181 Herugrim Combat +1000 1.04 Arthedain Argeleb(C 50, E 20, Ch 52(112)) 5 Ring of Barahir Command +35 31 Palantir of Annuminas Scrying 33 Palantir of Amon Sul Scrying 38 Silver Rod of Andunie Command +25 1.06 Northern Gondor Caranthir(C50, Ch 50) 30 Palantir of Orthanc Scrying Tarondor(C 60, A 10, E 20, Ch 64(104)) 29 Palantir of Minas Anor Scrying 49 Shield of Anarion Command +20 57 Helm of Isildur Command +20 Veantur(C 50, Ch 50(70)) 6 Ring of Axardil Command +10 28 Palantir of Minas Ithil Scrying 95 Gilgador Combat +500 Vinyaran(C 60, E 10, Ch 61) 27 Palantir of Osgiliath Scrying 1.07 Southern Gondor Baranor(M 30, Ch 30(40)) 114 Angian Combat +500 Celdrahil(C60, E10, Ch 61(71)) 85 Navron Combat +500 Marahil(C 10, A 10(35), E 20, Ch 14(30)) 4 Ring of Impersonation Agent +25 1.08 The Dwarves Bain I(C 50, E 10, Ch 51(126)) 10 Dwarven Ring of Power Command +40 60 Durin's Armor & Shield Command +15 102 Durin's Axe Combat +750 120 Hammer of the Deeps Combat +1000 Fulla III(C 30, E 10, Ch 31(46)) 17 Horn of Fear Combat +500 140 Hammer of Returning Combat +750 Thrar III(C30, A 10, Ch 31(46)) 69 Erchmar Combat +750 1.09 Sinda Elves Ringlin(M 50(80), St 20(50), Ch 50(80 35 Orb of Seeing Mage +30 64 Bracers of the Mist Stealth +30 Thranduil(C 60, E 30, St 20(30), Ch 63(78)) 55 Helm of Shadow Stealth +10 121 Troll Slayer Combat +750 122 Orc Slayer Combat +750 1.10 Noldo Elves Cirdan(C 40(60), A 20, E 40, M 50(60), St 25, Ch 69(77)) 40 Gaergil Safe in Deep Seas 51 Ossana Mage +10 59 Gaerennon Command +20 Elladan(C 50, A 20, M 20, Ch 58(68)) 93 Gorthdur Combat +500 106 Cubragol Combat +500 Elrohir(C 50, A 20, M 20, Ch 58(68)) 91 Gordur Combat +500 107 Curaran Combat +500 Elrond(C 40, E 60, M 70(120), St 25, Ch 87(162)) 11 Vilya Mage +50 41 Mantle of Doriath Hide Pop Center 90 Helkuin Combat +1250 Erestor(E 40, M 60(85), St 25, Ch 65(90)) 26 Mallorn Staff Mage +25 Glorfindel(C 60, E 30, M 40(55), St 25, Ch 74(97)) 8 Lorglin Mage +15 89 Macilromen Combat +1000 (Unknown Noldo) 32 Palantir of Elostirion Scrying 1.11 The Witch-King Angulion(C 10, A 20, E 30(60), M 30, Ch 40(44)) 157 Pectoral Emissary +30 Ashdurbuk Zalg(C 60(90), Ch 60(100)) 67 Ulukai Command +30 68 Thrakurgash Combat +500 Dancu(C 60, A 20, Ch 63(73)) 100 Elfbane Combat +500 Durkarian(C 50(70), A 10, E 10, Ch 53(73)) 47 Belt of Durin Command +20 Murazor(C 40(50), E 40, M 70(100), St 30, Ch 85(130)) 48 Thologaer Ciry Mage +30 52 Morgul Plate Command +10 75 Vasamacil Combat +750 82 Romoquenaro Combat +750 86 Nallagurth Combat +750 Rogrog(C 50, Ch 50(65)) 115 Fire Mace Combat +750 116 Blood Spike Combat +750 1.12 Dragon Lord Celedhring(C 20, A 30, M 50(80), Ch 60(130)) 155 Taurin Combat +2000 156 Maranya Mage +30 Khamul(C 30, A 30, E 30, M 40(70), St 30, Ch 53(98)) 62 Dragon Helm and Arm Mage +30 150 Stinging Tongue Combat +750 153 Water-skimmer Combat +750 Maben(E 20, M 50(80), Ch 52(82)) 154 Ring of Bleeding Mage +30 Orduclax(M 50(70), Ch 50(70)) 34 Orb of Dark Seeing Mage +20 Urgubal(C 30, E 10, Ch 31(41)) 99 Elfhewer Combat +500 1.13 Dog Lord(C 20, E 20, M 60, St 30, Ch 67(82)) Dendra Dwar 74 War-dancer Combat +750 138 Air-cleaver Combat +500 Gurthlug(C 30(60), E 20, Ch 32(62)) 160 Collar of Command Command +30 Krusnak(C 30, A 0(15) E 20, M 30(60), Ch 42(93)) 2 Ring of Stargazing Mage +30 43 Cloak of the Heavens Agent +15 148 Sickle of the Heavens Combat +1000 Tonn Varthkur(C 40(55), E 30, Ch 47(87)) 158 Thunder's Edge Combat +1250 159 Skull Helm Command +15 1.14 Cloud Lord Ji Indur(C 20(45), A 40, M 40, St 30, Ch 62(78)) 56 Helm of the Mumak-Kings Command +25 104 Dawnsword Combat +750 109 Cloud Bow Combat +750 1.15 Blind Sorcerer Akhorahil(C 20, E 20, M 60(75), St 30, Ch 76(101)) 73 Yellow Hammer Combat +500 123 Amulet of Communication Mage +15 Pochak(C 30(40), Ch 30(40)) 66 Bracers of Chennaca Command +10 1.16 Ice King Gaurhir(A 10, M 30(50), St 30, Ch 32(52)) 25 Staff of Bronze Mage +20 Hoarmurath(C 30, A 20, M 50(70), St 30, Ch 58(88)) 50 Ovir Crown Mage +20 80 Snow Hammer Combat +500 141 Hue-Changer Combat +500 Khathog(M 40(50), Ch 40(50)) 20 Staff of the Serpent Mage +10 1.17 Quiet Avenger Adunaphel(C 30, E 30, M 40, St 30, Ch 47(62)) 97 Fire's Edge Combat +750 143 Night Piercer Combat +500 Malezar(C 10, E 10, M 40, St 30, Ch 43(53)) 78 Sword of Soul Reduction Combat +500 1.18 Fire King Ren the Unclean(C 30(40), E 20, M 50, St 30, Ch 58(72)) 54 Helm of Sen Jey Command +10 111 Believer's Bane Combat +500 112 Burning Blade Combat +500 Skargnakh(C 30, A 10, E 10, Ch 34(44)) 84 Ongrum Combat +500 1.19 Long Rider Din Ohtar(A 30(60), M 10, E 10, St 30, Ch 25(49)) 70 Ring of Binding Agent +30 Lomelinde(A 30(50), M 10(30), Ch 25(36)) 71 Talisman of Absorption Mage +20 72 Cloak of Duvorn Agent +20 Uvatha(C 60, A 20(35), E 20, St 30, Ch 65(79)) 53 Listening Helm Agent +15 79 Stormless Bow Combat +500 92 Horse-Tamer Combat +500 1.20 Dark Lieutenants Bolvag(C 20, M 50, Ch 60(85)) 117 Hatred Curse Combat +750 Gothmog(C 70(85), A 30, E 0(20), Ch 76(84)) 37 Voice of the Dark Tower Emissary +20 46 Robe of the Orc-Priests Command +15 Miruimor(C 20, M 30, Ch 45(55)) 87 Morlach Combat +500 Urzahil(C 20(35), E 40, M 70(100), St 0(40), Ch 80(116) 3 Ring of Iron Magic Mage +30 45 Cloak of the Abyss Stealth +40 58 Helm of the Dark Command +15 Unknown Dark Lt. 118 Skull Flail Combat +1000 119 Moon Axe Combat +750 1.23 The Dunlendings Eribhen(M 50, Ch 50(65)) 24 Ghostbane Combat +750 137 Bloodrunner Combat +750 1.24 Rhudaur Arfanhil (C 40(50), Ch 40(50)) 124 Herufea Command +10 Broggha(C 20(30), A 10, M 10, Ch 24(34)) 63 Cu-Sagga-Brath Command +10 1.25 Easterlings Ovatha II(C 40, A 10, Ch 41(56)) 76 Usriev Combat +750 146 Horse-slayer Combat +500 The Fourth Age Game =================== By Tony Zbaraschuk Now, I haven't seen too much about the FA 1000 game, other than the recent Whispers articles on nation location and nation-building (a singularly uninspired article, IMO), and I'm not one of the playtesters, so don't know much about the various point costs in nation-building... but why should that stop me from speculating? First off, Things Look Really Different. You can't base your strategies on who's nearby, since you won't know who's nearby, nor what the effects on the Balance of Power will be if you march against one neighbor and not another. (E.g., in the 1650 game, North Gondor MUST march into the Ithil Pass, because otherwise the Dark Servants will be all over the landscape as they break out of Mordor. In the FA 1000 game, maybe nobody will even care about the Ithil Pass.) Hidden pop centers are a real advantage, just like they were meant to be, since now their location isn't known to everyone with a database file. Of course, people may still deduce that something's up if armies keep appearing out of nowhere. I suspect that a common strategy will be to start with a hidden camp somewhere far away from their core region and then secretly upgrade it to a major town, providing a very secure backup capitol. Uncovering character identities will take more time, too, so personal challenges, assassinations, kidnappings, doublings, and other fun activities will take rather more time to develop. I suspect that some of the mage spells (e.g., Divine Nation Forces) will see considerably more use, and a lot of people will be issuing Scout Character orders _all the time_. Which leads me to suspect that character distribution will be very different, too. Because launching initial attacks will be somewhat harder (you don't know who the enemy characters are, or how tough they are, and starting army and pop center locations off your map are totally unknown; furthermore, you don't know who can see YOU), there's less need for commanders (though the one nation in the Whispers article that had only ONE commander was way far out, in my opinion.) Given the power of agents in both the 1650 and 2950 games, many characters will probably opt for lots of powerful agents in their starting lineup. In my opinion, this is a mistake; who are you going to send the agents after. No, the real power class at start will be emissaries. In the 1650 game, for instance, only three nations (the Noldor, the Witch King and the Dark Lieutentants) start with emissaries of any power. Only Elrond, Murazor, and Urzahil are over 30 in emissary rank. There are a few 30s, but most emissaries are 10s and 20s in multi-class characters. Note how most of the Nation Strategy and Tactics in the early Mouth issues start by saying "Of course, I consider naming two (three, four) emissaries standard for this nation." Now you can start with them, and they don't have to be 30 emissaries. Imagine everyone starting with two or three 60 emissaries! There will be a LOT of new camps, and high-loyalty new camps, too. There will be a massive population explosion in this game. My own character-building strategy would probably be to have at least one character of high level (50-60) in each class, so that anything you want to do early (build camps, scout, develop armies, hunt for lore/artifacts) you can. The other four characters would then start as multi-class at lower levels to allow for development. Probably two agent-emissaries and two commander-agents, the best multi-class combinations. Maybe one triple-class character for long-term development. Of course, it all depends on what the costs are for various starting characters and character combinations. And picking nation advantages sounds real nifty, too. Again, I suspect that being able to create 40 agents/emissaries will be a very common choice, along with stealth (if it's possible.) Probably those, stealth, and the cheap construction abilities (build forts, build ships, hire armies) will be all that people will spend points on, with the others going to characters and pop centers. (Not armies. Create two 100-man armies, and you can recruit all you want to while the other nations are still figuring out where you are and which side you're on.) As I understand matters, only the Two Kingdoms will have market manipulation ability; otherwise EVERYONE will go for out. Those are my thoughts, anyway. You may have other opinions. May the best statesman win! The Cost of Nations in the 1650/2950 Scenarios ============================================== By Brian Mason (with minor additions from Tom Walton) That GSI has placed a relative cost on properties of player positions in the new scenario (me-pbm FA 1000) allows for one to calculate what would be the "cost" to create a position identical to the ones in me-pbm 1650 and 2950. This will provide two things: one, it will give you a way to further compare the strengths and weaknesses of positions in the two Third Age scenarios; and two, it will possibly be instructive for those of you in your first Fourth Age scenario who're puzzled by the plethora of possibilities. To a certain extent, this sort of exercise is artificial. It is uncertain whether or not the "cost" of these characteristics would be the same in the 1650/2950 scenarios (e.g., I consider the army costs in FA 1000 artificially high, and it is also impossible to have more than one army). For those of you unfamiliar with the FA 1000 costs they are summarized below: Special Nation Ability 1: scout/recon at double 7000 2: scout/recon at +20 3000 3: all chars scout at 50 4000 DWARVES ONLY 4: challenge rank bonus 2000 5: stealth rank bonus 7000 6: no morale loss for force march 2000 7: low morale loss with no food 2000 8: +20% adjustment on buy/sell orders 6000 9: new emissaries at 40 6000 10: new mages at 40 4000 11: new agents at 40 6000 12: new commanders at 40 3000 13: troop training at 20 2000 14: troop training at 25 3000 ELVES ONLY 15: HI troop training at 30 2000 DWARVES ONLY 16: MA troop training at 25 1000 17: build ships at 1/2 timber 2000 18: build ships at 1/3 timber 2000 ELVES ONLY 19: build fort. at 1/2 timber 4000 20: new armies at morale 40 3000 21: hire armies for free 7000 22: all chars uncover secrets at 40 2000 23: can learn spell "weakness" 4000 24: can learn spell "conjure mounts" 4000 25: can learn spell "conjure food" 4000 26: can learn spell "conjure hordes" 4000 DS ONLY 27: can learn spell "fearful hearts" 3000 DS ONLY 28: can learn spell "fanaticism" 3000 DS ONLY 29: can learn spell "summon storms" 4000 DS ONLY 30: can learn spell "teleport" 6000 31: kidnappings/assasinations at +20 12000 32: no storms at sea or lost navies 3000 33: navy warship strength = 4 2000 34: navy warship strength = 5 3000 Artifacts (#2 is free) 4000 Navy (Transports and Warships) 250 Hidden Population Center 10000 Armies Heavy cavalry (per 100 troops) 6000 Light cavalry (per 100 troops) 3000 Heavy infantry (per 100 troops) 4000 Light infantry (per 100 troops) 2000 Archers (per 100 troops) 2000 Men-at-arms (per 100 troops) 1000 Population Centers Camp 3000 Village 7000 Town 12000 Major Town 19000 City 27000 Port 2000 Tower 1000 Fort 3000 Castle 8000 Keep(*) 13000 Citadel(*) 20000 (*) extrapolation, no FA cost provided Characters 10 or 20 skill rank 300 25 skill rank(*) 350 30 skill rank 400 40 skill rank 600 50 skill rank 1000 60 skill rank 1500 60 skill rank emissary 1000 MEN ONLY 60 skill rank mage 1000 ELVES ONLY 60 skill rank agent 1000 DS ONLY 60 skill rank commander 1000 DWARVES ONLY 70 skill rank(*) 2200 90 skill rank(*) 3500 (*) extrapolation, no FA cost provided The table below reflects the FA 1000 cost of each of the above major categories. Column one lists the position, column two is the number of the specific nation advantages (SNA) that nation has, column three is the SNA cost, while columns four, five, and six are the artifact, navy, and hidden pop center costs. Columns seven eight and nine are the costs for armies, population centers, and characters based on FA 1000 values. Note that some extrapolation is done for keep, citadels, and skill ranks of 25 or 70. Note also, that while this represents the cost, based on FA 1000 expenses, it might not be possible to make these nations up, exactly. For example, the maximum stealth (without some special ability) in FA 1000 is 10. 1650 nations are listed first, then 2950 nations. SNA SNA$ Art Navy Hidden Armies Pop Chars Wood. 1,4,5,7 18000 0 0 0 126000 80000 7200 North. 8,9,13,17 16000 0 4500 0 126000 114000 5000 Eoth. 6,12,13,24 11000 4000 0 0 306000 114000 5200 Arth. 7,10,13,19 12000 12000 6000 0 141000 131000 6500 Card. 12,16,20,21 14000 0 0 0 99000 147000 4900 NGon. 7,12,13,19 11000 28000 10500 0 246000 356000 10300 Sgon. 7,10,13,19 12000 8000 18750 0 240000 203000 8000 Dwar. 3,6,15,19 12000 24000 0 10000 234000 170000 5900 Sinda 5,7,14,18 14000 16000 9750 40000 78000 162000 13600 Noldo 5,6,14,22 14000 48000 7500 20000 57000 122000 19200 WK 7,12,26,27 12000 44000 0 0 165000 138000 13700 DrL 1,5,7,30 22000 28000 0 10000 129000 100000 10900 Dog 5,7,13,24 15000 21000 0 0 144000 71000 8600 Cloud 5,11,22,31 27000 8000 0 0 162000 82000 5600 Blind 10,26,29,32 15000 8000 5250 0 111000 63000 7300 Ice 5,7,11,29 19000 16000 0 0 108000 61000 6100 Quiet 1,9,12,22 19000 8000 6750 0 99000 86000 7800 Fire 7,20,21, 19000 12000 0 0 111000 58000 6200 26,28 LR 6,12,13,24 11000 20000 3000 10000 156000 66000 6900 DkLts 10,12,27 10000 24000 0 0 132000 77000 12300 Cors. 4,17,32 9000 0 20750 0 117000 181000 10800 Harad 4,16,21,22 12000 0 9750 0 117000 230000 5500 Duns 1,4,11 15000 4000 0 0 162000 97000 7000 Rhud. 4,12,16,21 13000 4000 0 0 204000 104000 5400 Elngs 4,7,12 7000 4000 0 0 189000 154000 5500 SNA SNA$ Art Navy Hidden Armies Pop Chars Wood. 1,4,5,7 18000 0 0 0 8000 57000 9000 North. 8,9,13,17 16000 0 2000 0 14000 68000 5400 Rohan 6,12,13,24 11000 8000 0 0 30000 64000 6400 Rgers 7,10,13,19 12000 32000 0 0 10000 55000 10600 Silvan 5,7,14,18 14000 16000 2000 10000 14000 53000 9400 NGon 7,12,13,19 11000 20000 5000 10000 58000 128000 8600 Sgon 7,10,13,19 12000 8000 5000 0 44000 101000 7700 Dwar. 3,6,15,19 12000 12000 0 0 30000 60000 8600 Sinda 5,7,14,18 14000 16000 1000 40000 4000 61000 15100 Noldo 5,6,14,22 14000 36000 1000 10000 4000 69000 16600 Wking 7,12,26,27 12000 36000 0 0 16000 70000 10700 Dlord 1,5,7,30 22000 16000 0 10000 16000 72000 9100 Dog 5,7,13,24 15000 24000 0 0 16000 68000 7500 Cloud 5,11,22,31 27000 8000 0 0 6000 66000 5400 Blind 10,26,29,32 15000 16000 0 0 6000 56000 10000 Ice 5,7,11,29 19000 16000 0 10000 6000 51000 7100 Quiet 1,9,12,22 19000 8000 2000 0 21000 58000 7300 Fire 7,20,21, 19000 12000 0 0 8000 48000 6200 26,28 LR 6,12,13,24 11000 28000 0 10000 45000 63000 7100 DkLts 10,12,27 10000 36000 0 0 6000 57000 12600 Cors. 4,17,32 9000 4000 7500 0 10000 102000 5600 REstr 4,16,21,22 12000 4000 3000 0 18000 58000 4900 Duns 1,4,11 15000 4000 0 0 17000 62000 6900 WW 4,12,16,21 13000 8000 0 0 12000 64000 9600 KEstr 4,7,12 7000 4000 0 0 30000 70000 5400 According to FA 1000 at start costs, the following setups would be allowed based on SNA and other special item costs: 1650 Woodmen 2950 Woodmen 1650 Eothraim 2950 Northmen 1650 Cardolan 2950 Riders of Rohan 1650 Dunlendings 2950 Rhun Easterlings 1650 Rhudaur 2950 Dunlendings 1650 Easterlings 2950 White Wizard 2950 Khand Easterlings The limitation here is generally due to three factors. First of all, no nation can afford multiple hidden population centers or more than six artifacts. The larger number of allowed 2950 nations is reflective of a smaller navy (in the case of the Northmen) and the Easterlings being split. As far as armies go, all 1650 nations are disallowed. The 2950 armies are smaller, but still generally larger than the FA 1000 start. The following would be allowed: 2950 Woodmen 2950 Dunadan Rangers 2950 Sinda Elves 2950 Noldo Elves 2950 Cloud Lord 2950 Blind Sorcerer 2950 Ice King 2950 Fire King 2950 Dark Lieutenants 2950 Corsairs 2950 White Wizard Again, when considering population center costs, no 1650 nation would be allowed in the FA 1000 scenario. In the 2950 scenario about the following would be allowed: 2950 Woodmen 2950 Dunadan Rangers 2950 Silvan Elves 2950 Blind Sorcerer 2950 Ice King 2950 Fire King 2950 Dark Lieutenants Finally, when considering characters, many nations have acceptable character groupings. They are: 1650 Northmen 2950 Northmen 1650 Eothraim 2950 Blind Sorcerer 1650 Cardolan 2950 Corsairs 1650 Dwarves 2950 Rhun Easterlings 1650 Cloud Lord 2950 Khand Easterlings 1650 Haradwaith 1650 Rhudaur 1650 Easterlings Ramifications for the 1650/2950 Scenarios ----------------------------------------- This comparison gives some interesting insight into the 1650/2950 scenarios, a perspective similar to but based on different data from the nation comparison tables published earlier in The Mouth. For example, take a close look at the nations allowed in the FA scenario listed above; by definition, these nations are weaker in the aspects discussed than those nations *not* allowed. That is, in terms of characters the Northmen and Eothraim of the 1650 game are definitely weaker than the Witch-King or Dragon Lord, as neither of the latter two could be duplicated in the FA scenario. On the surface this is obvious, but one wonders about the role that special nation abilities plays when one realizes that the Cloud Lord, of all positions, is also on the list. Of course, in terms of SNA's the Cloud Lord *can't* be duplicated by a Fourth Age position, so the comparison must then be taken to the what if?' stage of speculation; is the Cloud Lord position so very powerful, and so likely to end up placing, precisely because of that nation's SNA's? Is that why GSI made it impossible to construct a Cloud Lord-like position in the Fourth Age scenario? It seems likely. For a more realistic comparison of the cost of armies to other items, like characters and SNA's, I found it useful to divide the listed cost on the table by 10. Army prices are ridiculously high in the FA scenario and don't translate well at all to the other scenarios; dividing by 10 seemed a good way to bring the costs into line and to make up for the fact that most starting armies will be ground into dust in a few turns time, or assassinated out of existence. Starting armies rarely accomplish much in the 1650/2950 scenarios; it's the armies recruited afterwards that go on to press the advantage, something which is also true in the Fourth Age game. In any event, seeing how nations match up to one another is interesting, and may be useful in either choosing a position or constructing a new one. It also provides a guide on how you can duplicate your favorite 1650/2950 position in the FA scenario. FA 1000: buy now or pay later ? ------------------------------- There are many items you can "purchase" at start in the FA 1000 scenario which are available at different costs than the usual cost which is associated with the order. For example, if we compare costs vs. the FA startup cost we see the following: Costs: Order FA 1000 startup ships 1000 + 1500*n 250 camps 2000 or 4000 3000 village 7000 7000 town 13000 12000 major town 21000 19000 city 31000 27000 tower 1000 + 1000*n 1000 fort 3000 + 3000*n 3000 castle 5000 + 5000*n 8000 harbor 2500 + 5000*n 0 port 4000 + 7500*b 2000 30 level char 5000 400 multi-char 10000 600 + n = cost of timber Clearly, certain things are a better buy than others. All items associated with navies (ships, transports, harbors, and ports) are significantly below cost. A marine power could get started for a fraction of the typical cost. For example, the 2950 Corsairs nation has 30 ships, 5 harbors and a port. This can be had in FA 1000 for 9500 gold. The cost to build this sort of force is 46,500 gold plus 77,500 timber (with no ship building SNA). Multi-classed characters are a better buy. At 10k per character these characters, whether they be multi-classed commander/agents for all your army subcommands, or others, are expensive at 10,000 gold. If you can anticipate them, they are at a significant cost saving, however, this may cut into your stable of very good characters. Most pop center upgrades are at a modest cost savings, at best. One of the quirks of the FA game is that it's painfully easy to build a naval power early on, given the appropriate positioning. There are very few naval powers in the 1650/2950 scenarios, and these nations tend to avoid conflict whenever possible because rebuilding losses is so very difficult and expensive. That means that if you wish to be a pirate you can position your nation along the coast - any coast - and spend a good chunk of your starting funds on a nice, big navy. In fact, you could see a half-dozen players do this in a game, pushing naval warfare and strategy to the forefront like you never could before in the other scenarios. Rather than being a simple adjunct to what's happening on land, the events at sea could decide the balance of power across all of Middle-Earth. Those among you who're hankering to swashbuckle from Lindon to Umbar, take note: you've a real chance of getting your wish in the new game. Specific Nation Advantage Comparison Table (1650 & 2950) -------------------------------------------------------- Economies, armies, and character strengths have been adequately covered in past issues (see Allegiance Comparison Tables in "From the Mouth of Sauron" issue 3 (1650) by Tom Walton and issue 35 (2950) by Brian Mason). What is covered here is the same sort of allegiance comparison, but here addressing only specific nation advantages. Dark vs Free 1650 Eriador Mirkwood Mordor 0.30 0.50 2.70 w/Rhudaur 0.63 w/Dunland 0.68 w/both 1.00 w/Corsairs 2.88 w/Harad 2.94 w/Easterlings 2.84 Dark vs Free 2950 0.46 0.48 2.17 w/Dunland 1.04 w/White Wizard 0.96 w/both 1.54 w/Corsairs 2.32 w/Rhun 2.37 w/Khand 2.29 The big Dark Servant advantage in Mordor, while very misleading, does bring to mind another factor not tabulated in the Allegiance Comparison Tables. That is, the number of orders an allegiance can bring to bear. While in 1650 the DS cannot match the armies are economic might of the Gondors they have him whipped in the number of orders they can execute. Furthermore, their artifacts and quality of starting characters only serves to accentuate this difference. The mean SNA cost for both Third Age scenarios is 14360 +/- 4316. Nations falling from one to two sigma above are the Dragon Lord, Ice King, Quiet Avenger, and Fire King. The Cloud Lord is a remarkable 3 sigma outside the range. This is a reflection of his exceedingly important starting SNAs. Only the Corsairs and Easterlings (Khand Easterlings) fall below the -1 sigma belt. One should realize that GSI's pricing of the SNA's seems a bit odd one some things, perhaps too high on some traditionally thought to be relatively useless. Even so, the results above a roughly in line with the previous nation comparison tables and indicate that perhaps one of the primary factors in victory is how well a nation's particular advantages are used (the Cloud Lord being a prime example). If this is so, then in the Fourth Age game choosing your SNA's could be the single most important step of nation creation that you do. Last Word ========= From Brian Mason Before I get into the main subject of this "Last Word," let me take a moment to suggest you point your web browser at http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/tolksarc.htm which has some nice Tolkien humor. The plot synopses are a gas, and I'm eager to try out the Lord of the Rings board game just so I can play the "Arwen meets Eowyn" plot complication card. Diplomacy and the break in neutrals is the topic for this issue. I've played in several games of me-pbm, and in most cases the games were blessed with a 3:2 neutral split. Generally, I've found that newer players tend to opt for Free People Positions, so the initially powerful army and financial advantage the Free have does often not amount to much. Games that I've played in have been pretty good. However, a 4:1 or 5:0 split in neutrals will usually result in instant disaster for the other side. In 1650-201 I was playing the Noldo and trying my best to talk with neutrals, but all my negotiating acumen didn't matter in the end as the Long Rider player stole the Ring of Wind from the Dunlendings ("because I have Din Ohtar and I want it, that's why") and the neutrals flocked to the Free People side just to punish the Long Rider. (Possibly the Servs in this game should have policed their own players and forced the LR to return the Ring, but I digress.) The game, which lasted a little over a year, was from that point on never in doubt. We had some inexperienced and uncooperative Free People players, but we were never in danger of losing (or even getting hurt) from that point on. In another case, 2950-22, we had what may have been one of the first all email games. For what ever reason, good negotiating by the Freeps, bad negotiating by the Servs, or just dumb luck, most of the Neutrals (I can't remember if it was four or five) decided to go Freep. That, along with a healthy dose of "know-it-all-itis" and mutual animosity among the Servs led them to drop early. This game ended around turn ten. Now, I'm facing a similar situation. In 1650-251 many of the Freeps (myself among them) have aggressively pursued the neutrals. As a result a disproportionate number of them may decide to join the Free Peoples. For some bizarre reason the Long Rider position is not being played (I don't know if the fault lies with GSI or some bone-headed player), and I've received a sort of -- we better get a more equitable split on neutrals or we should quit -- message from one of the Dark Servants. I'm in this game playing against one of the best friends I've made in me-pbm, and I dearly want to play against him for quite a while. He brings out the best play in me, and keeps challenging me to learn. The bottom line is that I want this game to go on. Now, while discretion is necessary here, I will elaborate a bit more. Negotiations have been proceeding at a clip, and at least one neutral in this game is deep into planning, even though they have not officially decided on an alliance. Should they, in a sense, backstab their allies for the sake of balance? Should they give 2+ turns fair warning to a side that they are switching? So, in this situation, what is a player to do? I'm aware of the futility of playing on in the face of terrible odds, yet, should a neutral be forced to join an alliance he doesn't want to (for whatever reason) for the sake of play balance? When should a player drop his "full court press" to get others allied with him? Does this sort of must-have-a-3:2-split mentality punish those who are good at negotiation and reward those who are not. I found in playtest game #1 the utter futility of playing a game as an isolationist, and will continue to see all games in the same manner I've always: a implicit willingness to sacrifice my own position for the good of the team. I don't think I have any sort of conclusion here, but it has allowed me to vent a bit on a problem. Is the problem prevalent? Probably not. Is it intractable? Also, probably not, but much depends on the individual involved. Brian Mason